I recently had a job which did not go well. Eight weeks in, I was mired in sketch revisions and being asked to start over for the fourth time and so I decided to cut my losses and walk. When I shared the experience, most replies I received were from folks commiserating that, unfortunately, that’s how it goes sometimes. But one reply was a bit of an outlier in asserting a good practice going forward was to produce my sketches with A.I. as this would have saved me dozens of hours on this particular project and to do otherwise is bad business.
Elsewhere, an artist was recently replaced from some covers when people raised concerns about the work being A.I. As many noted in the following discussions, the artist in question can clearly draw, so why would they do something like this?
Talking about A.I. isn’t something that I particularly enjoy. As one of the names on the infamous Midjourney list and somebody who has made a living through commercial art for nearly two decades, the subject is very personal to me. So it is hard to talk about this topic without getting into emotional soapboxing about the ethics and legality of all of it. I take those things very seriously and I personally feel there shouldn’t be much more to say on the subject. But I can see that others won’t always share these feelings when they can seek their own benefit instead. So I’m going to talk about an issue which I think it much more practical and pragmatic and perhaps more neutral. And that is: I think A.I. is a poison to the creative process. I think it makes your work worse and makes you less interesting and less employable. And that’s what I think is worth talking about today.
I’ve spent most of my career working as a freelancer, but I’ve also been an art director and a teacher. I’ve had practical experience engaging with other folks’ work in different capacities either trying to hire them or trying to help them get hired. While quality and consistency are extremely important in making an illustrator hirable, having a distinct voice is essential for a robust career. Particularly over the long term. While style-chameleon artists were common in the era of in-house illustration departments at advertising firms, the current landscape rewards artists whose work is memorable and contributes something unique. Every artist that you love does something in their work that belongs to them. That’s why you know and remember them. That’s why you can spot their work in a crowd. And that’s why their work has premium value to a client.
Beyond this, all visual solutions begin with answering the “what” and “how” of delivering the client’s message. Render and surface style tends to take all the credit, but it is the ability to convey message and feeling through design and storytelling that elevates an image and builds a meaningful connection with the viewer.
Some people, in defense of generative A.I., will claim that A.I. builds from influences the same as human beings do. This is, to me, the first indication that I’m talking to somebody who either does not understand how A.I. works, how human creativity works, or most likely both. Something that needs to be clearly understood is that A.I. has no intelligence. It does not “think”. It is a predictive text program that simulates human expression by ingesting unfathomable amounts of data and trying to replicate that data. It does not know and can not know what meaning its outputs have. Further, it has no desire and no emotion to motivate action or decisions. It simply runs a program and assembles pixels or words to match what seems most like other correct pixels and words in its vast data set. It aggregates. It produces averages.
Humans, obviously, do not create like this. Humans have intentions and purpose to what we do. These intentions are sometimes deep, sometimes shallow, sometime clear, and sometimes nebulous. But we always have emotion and thought connected to what we make. What we create is guided by intent colliding with discovery, and these two states feed each other. And the influence that we draw from existing work is not an analysis of pixels, but an emotional response to how that work makes us feel. Even in analytical study of form or anatomy, our brains do not operate like computer programs. While committing information to memory, we also interpret and seek to understand and this affects how that information is later able to be used. Because we are each an individual, infinitely complex being, our different physiological, environmental, and cultural variations bring us to infinite different endpoints. Like it or not, we all see the world slightly differently and our creative expressions reflect this.
It has become standard to describe A.I. as a tool. I argue that this framing is incorrect. It does not aid in the completion of a task. It completes the task for you. A.I. is a service. You cede control and decisions to an A.I. in the way you might to an independent contractor hired to do a job that you do not want to or are unable to do. This is important to how using A.I. in a creative workflow will influence your end result. You are, at best, taking on a collaborator. And this collaborator happens to be a mindless average aggregate of data.
To some, the prospect of collaborating with the sum average of all artists is apparently an attractive prospect. Maybe you feel you are below average in some areas and the A.I. will therefore raise the quality of those areas. But every percent that you hand over to the A.I. is a percent less of your unique voice, perspective, and intention. And for folks who use A.I. generations wholesale, that comes out to a 100% loss of anything personal or unique that they might bring.
I’m going to shoehorn in a short sideroad here. I’ve also been thinking about the disruption business model embraced by tech companies and startups. Maybe I’m over my skis in this point, but it seems to me that the cycle generally goes: 1. create a tech substitute for an existing industry. 2. Back this with venture capital funding so deep that massive losses can be sustained for years and years. 3. Aggressively compete against an existing industry which can not afford to operate at a loss for extended periods of time. 4. the existing industry is undercut until it falters or outright fails. 5. The disruptor(s), now having captured the market for the given industry, raise prices and reduce services to achieve profitability. I think about this every time I sit through a commercial on the Amazon Prime account that I’m already paying to use. Apply this strategy to A.I. and creative professions. These programs are designed to undercut working artists with fast, cheap, and “good enough” until work is devalued to the point that artists are forced out because they can’t make a living. After that, with untold amounts of money lost by the tech companies giving away this service to drive actual artists out of business, the companies that own these programs will have effectively bought the industry. From there, they are then in a position to charge whatever they want for their shitty product because it has become the most viable option, with all of the money now going to them. It doesn’t have to go this way, but this is the logical path to profitability.
Given all of this, I can not personally see anything attractive about using these programs in any capacity. Though they might dramatically speed up or replace parts of a workflow, the short and long term costs are appalling to me. It is removing my own hand, the single most valuable asset I possess, from the creation of my work. Even used for prelim work or “inspiration” as I’ve heard other folks occasionally say, I see it as contracting out something crucially important to the lowest bidder. The early stages set in motion everything that follows. They are what the entire creative work is built around. To hire that out to a robot is to value the robot’s decisions above my own, existing only to paint-by-numbers a design that I did not create. And I believe outsourcing segments of the workflow also degrades one’s abilities, making you more dependent on the service. So if you value your mind, spirit, and vision at all as important components to your work, this should be a non-starter. And if you don’t value those things, you might consider another line of work altogether, because that is what makes an artist’s career possible.
If there is a button one can push that spits out images and it is available to everybody, why on earth would any creative professional push that button? Clients don’t need to hire you to push it. They can do that themselves. The central lie behind these programs is that they are meant for artists. They’re not. We don’t need them and using them only hurts us. What our clients really need from us is what the A.I. button cannot and never will be able to give: a human expression in all its flawed, beautiful glory.
Your work is a great inspiration to all of us.
Thank you very much for your posts.
Muddy Colors is an essential website for everyone who loves art.
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Well said! The first thing that came to mind while reading this is Michael Whelan’s art (He’s one of my favorites and my copy of his art book is extremely well worn). His paintings are beautiful and well rendered, but also usually contain lots of symbols, some relating to the story, some personal as well as composition and design choices that have different meanings and intent. A.I. might be able to cobble together a “pretty” picture but it can’t replicate the artist’s life, understanding, experience and thought process that leads to making certain choices that go into a painting.
Thanks for your sensible and articulate thoughts, Mr. Palumbo. As artists dealing with these issues on a daily basis, we often feel tempted to simply entrench ourselves in moral righteousness in response to an opposing rhetoric that —appropriately enough— tends to amount to little else than derivative meaninglessness. Actual discussion feels hopeless, but demoralization is after all the best game plan for those who, at least at some level, know that what they have is worthless as long as they can’t fully control the baseline for worth.
Given how this technology’s inspiringly promethean promise is entirely based on the notion that written/spoken language outranks and supersedes any other kind of skill or thought process (a notion that a certain career path loves down to an existential level for obvious reasons), it’s not a surprise that almost all arguments mounted in its support are in turn based on self-serving semantics amounting to little else than circular logic, of a particularly cheap kind. Are generators tools? Does the tech learn like us? If you define “tool”, or “learning” (or “intelligence”) in a vague enough way, of course that can be true; for a depressingly adulterated value of “truth”.
I suspect every commercial artist has personally encountered the sort of mindset that in fact would sincerely call this software a tool: those who also treated artists like tools, convinced that the ability to actually execute an idea through visual language is a separate, merely technical/logistical process that simply serves to realize an intellectually standalone governing vision. “Give me 10 color variations, so one of them may be the one I’ll know I wanted all along.” They won’t let themselves believe choices like that can be performed with intent and reshaped by interweaving live factors, informed by experience and knowledge rather than trial and error; the closest thing to a creative process they can conceive is browsing through finished options until something clicks for them, ironically from that undeveloped part of themselves as human beings that they don’t respect or care to understand. That IS the target audience of this technology.
“Asserting a good practice going forward was to produce my sketches with A.I. as this would have saved me dozens of hours on this particular project and to do otherwise is bad business.”
I’m currently trying to swat this line of thinking away at my day job. We’ve already seen the terrible results from people doing just this, but it’s still being floated as the only way to do business going forward, to satisfy spoiled clients that have started demanding endless revision rounds on sketches. It’s a very short jump from here to a client asking why they need the artist at all, when they can generate 200 shitty thumbnails on their own.
Thank you for your sincerely contribution, it’s so important that people of your caliber participate of this historical proccess.
I think that there is one valid point to add ever in these A.I.s reflections, and I know, I know, maybe I’m wrong or my words sound to hard, but in some Lauren’s article here about the “envy of non-creatives” we found some paths about this. There is two kind of people looking for artists, those who are admired and those who are jealous. And, please, note, I’m not accusing they, I’m really worried about why these people are jealous, how their lives let them in this path to the point of limited expression or can’t expression at all. Here we not talk only about art anymore, we talking about how we’re building our world and offering people the basics to exist. Developing our self expression should be comum good to all beings.
Beautifully put, Dave! I think you nailed the current economics of tech disruption in your side note. One (hopeful) thing to consider is that it wasn’t always this way: writing off losses for a significant amount of time to undercut one’s rivals used to be viewed as an illegal form of unfair competition. Although we’ve recently come through forty years where that view receded, we’re now in the midst of a paradigm shift on antitrust and competition, occurring broadly throughout society and more narrowly within the current leadership of the FTC and Justice Department antitrust division. Lina Khan in particular has been very receptive to the problem of ‘AI’ as an unfairly sourced and subsidized competitor in the markets. I expect there will be some helpful regulation in this matter, depending on whether she (or others of like mind) are allowed to continue their work. Something worth considering as national elections loom.
Excellently put David <3
Wonderful article As a fine artist, it’s disturbing that non-artists claim we are “trained” in the exact way that AI is trained. Your response is excellent – ” What we create is guided by intent colliding with discovery, and these two states feed each other.” As artists, we also feed on the rich corpus of human endeavor that came before us — not just visual art, but also mythology, poetry, prose, music. We don’t copy it like machines, we use it as a reference to build our own unique understanding of the world. I love Martha Graham’s statement — “There is a vitality, a life force, an energy, a quickening that is translated through you into action, and because there is only one of you in all of time, this expression is unique. And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and it will be lost.” We must celebrate our unique contributions in all their “flawed, beautiful glory.”.
A beautiful statement. A very strong argument I heard recently supporting your line of thinking: “For generative AI to work, it needs specific data. The data is the program.” It is a bait and switch to convince people, that there is some magic in the code. It’s statistics, linear, algebra, and other peoples content. We will always need the people.
>Some people, in defense of generative A.I., will claim that A.I. builds from influences the same as human beings do.
This is disproven by the fact that AI, unless trained otherwise, will happily generate images that contain artist’s signatures (and stuff like Shutterstock watermarks).
This feels totally unlike the process of human inspiration. Nobody looks at a really cool artist’s work and thinks “I like it! I want to create more paintings with his signature in the corner!”
[Nobody looks at a really cool artist’s work and thinks “I like it! I want to create more paintings with his signature in the corner!”]
well, some folks do, but we have a word for that – forgery
Thank you for putting my unease about AI into words.
There can be no good art without intent. There can be no good art without a discovery process which inevitably involves struggle.
That struggle to manifest something that happened between the artist and the world is always visible in the painting, the prose, the music. When you take it out of the art, you end up with bland nothingness.
I am a writer, not a painter, but it’s basically the same in my field. If I were to outsource idea generation, rewrites or editing to the machine, my work would be worse for it.
Because I would have omitted the struggle part. Can’t cut any corners there.
So perfectly put and definitely a better angle than the emotional one which I definitely get a bit stuck on! This, aside from the ethical part is the reason I don’t understand that there are artists out there who are embracing this, why would you want the machine to make your decisions? They will lose themselves and their style and what makes their art unique. I’ve already seen a few embrace it and it’s just boring to me. As someone said about Chat GPT in regards to books – ‘Why would I want to read a book that nobody could be bothered to write?’ – same goes for pictures!
“I think A.I. is a poison to the creative process. ”
Come on, you’ve lost me already. Your statement should be “I think AI is being used by many to poison the creative process”. There is a huge difference.
This is simply more blind demonizing of a technology, and your emotional bias is not allowing you see the truth of what is happening.
Of course AI is an incredibly useful for the creative process. Good God you can ideate on a visual, textual and auditory scale that is literally impossible to do without.
I know you have an answer for everything, and almost everyone is knee-jerk anti or for AI because they’re wrapped up in their emotions, but the reality cannot be explained away.
Just because one artist abuses it does not mean the whole technology is about abuse. Just because a model or many are unethical or illegal, doesn’t mean they all are.
This is elementary thinking. If you can’t put your emotional bias aside and navigate that, what value do you really have in this conversation? All you’re doing is adding more mud to it.
And, no, I couldn’t care less what a single person on this planet thinks about technology. It exists, it will be used and abused, no matter what you think or say. Live with it.
“Of course AI is an incredibly useful for the creative process. Good God you can ideate on a visual, textual and auditory scale that is literally impossible to do without.”
You’ve clearly missed the entire point of the article. No, you CAN’T ideate in scale with AI. Why? Because *you are not the one doing the ideating.* You have contracted out your ideation process to the AI. You are NOT being creative when you are asking the AI to be creative for you.
“It exists, it will be used and abused, no matter what you think or say. Live with it.”
And here, unfortunately, I think you are correct. And I am not that biased; I think some uses of AI for the rote elements of image construction can be helpful, and I even think AI art can be a fun slot machine when NOT used for serious work, when not competing with human artists. However, the unfortunate part of all this, is that AI-generated art leverages the human propensity for laziness and cheapness. Why go through the time and struggle of the creative process, when you can sit back and let a machine do it for you? This sort of propensity is why it is very much, as Mr. Palumbo points out, a poison. If enough people in the younger generations take advantage of the AI instead of exercising the creative process for themselves, then the human capacity for creativity – or even the ability to recognize the creative process occurring within oneself – will be eroded entirely, and that will be a tragedy. And unfortunately, your post is indicative of that very result – you seem to be confusing the AI’s ideation process for your own.
“Maybe I’m over my skis in this point,”
Yes, you are. All you have needlessly described there is how technology replaces human labor and creativity. Are you aware we have been doing this for thousands of years? Do you honestly believe we are going to stop now because *any* group of people feel their particular labor or creativity is threatened? When did that stop us in the past? Why do you think it will stop us now?
Stop demonizing the technology, and start demonizing the unsustainable systems we are trapped within that force people into these desperate positions.
Do you really think professional artists would give a damn about the use of AI if their livelihoods weren’t threatened by it? Of course they wouldn’t. They’d laugh in derision at it and anybody who used it and go back to creating.
it would seem you that totally missed the point …..
If you don’t like the systems we’re trapped in then why are you in the comment section here defending them? If we didn’t live in capitalism I don’t think we’d have tech bros trying to replace artists with algorithms. You are in these comments going after the people who are actually making cogent arguments against using these tools in these systems.
Save it, You can’t think straight.
No, I didn’t miss the point. This is quite obviously not everything to be said on the matter, and I guarantee you have all kinds of wacky bs going through your mind.
“If you don’t like the systems we’re trapped in then why are you in the comment section here defending them? ”
Not at all defending these systems.. why do you think I brought light to them and said we should be demonizing them instead?
Get a grip, people. I know that nobody reads books anymore, but good grief. READ.
Hey dontbesilly, for coherence I’ll reply to all comments here.
Out the gate, “I think A.I. is poison to the creative process” is exactly what I meant. I think the point is pretty straightforward: these programs bypass the discovery and exploration of transforming thoughts into images or word by jumping straight to a result. Looking at images that you didn’t design and choosing the one that you like is not, in my opinion, a satisfactory creative process.
next is talking about ethics and legal concerns, which I’m intentionally putting to the side in my piece. So you’re having an argument with somebody else here. Some emotional venting after that, but I’m not seeing a point being made that I can respond to.
2nd thread (this one):
technology replacing creativity isn’t, in my opinion, what we’ve been doing for thousands of years. But “technology replaces…creativity” is an accurate read on my concern. And my description of the tech disruptor business model is given for the purpose of pointing out the unsustainable systems we are trapped within. The enemy here is greed and capital.
Then you berate other comments responding for not reading your post closely enough, but I think you didn’t read the OP closely enough. So, a push on that one.
3rd thread (in response to Arnie’s comment):
Things getting really emotional here. But nothing relating to the OP.
____
The only point I see being made with substance is that A.I. allows for fast and vast iteration. As I said, I don’t find this persuasive as a creative process if you’re outsourcing that iteration to a 3rd party. But I suppose there are plenty of examples of artists who had apprentices or studios essentially doing this for them, so it’s a fair point to look at.
I have two issues with this though. The first is pretty much what I said in the last two paragraphs of my OP. If you can’t or won’t go through the process of iteration yourself and rely on a 3rd party to do it, that is a portion of creative voice that you are discarding. The overall point of my piece is that having a distinct creative voice is critical for a freelance illustrator, so watering that down is most likely going to negatively impact you.
The second issue is that you already have the whole internet full of images to inspire and jump off from. Why need an algorithm to make images for you if they’re simply to serve as jumping off points? Something else is happening in the process that benefits you. And that something else is the part which I feel is the purest core of what makes each artist interesting: interpretation.
If you understand and disagree with the post, obviously nobody is stopping you from using A.I. to your heart’s content. You’re right in that I don’t laugh in derision at people who use A.I. If it makes me feel any emotion in particular, it’s sadness. Hayao Miyazaki’s quote “We humans are losing faith in ourselves” probably best sums it up. I don’t laugh. I find it too depressing. And then, as you said, I go back to creating.
I know my comments were extremely critical.
You have to understand that many of us, especially those in tech, and those disillusioned by capitalism and other systems that rule our lives, are incredibly frustrated to see this play out.
I am an artist myself. I used MidJourney when it first came out. I have used GPT, but for very minimally creative stuff (name ideas).
I know intimately what these tools add to and take away from the creative process. It is tragic that many artist’s work will be replaced by machines. But this is the way of technology, and capitalism (the real source of this problem) promotes cheap automation to maximize profit.
There is so much that is said on this subject that is plain wrong. And it is clear to see as an artist and technologist of 20 years having used these tools. How can I accept a falsehood or shred of ignorance that plainly goes against an actual experience? I know the reality, as do many other artists that have ventured into AI.
I won’t start a back and forth here. I don’t want to argue any more points, if I’m honest. I’ve said what I came to say. I will say I’m sorry for being so critical, I am just so very tired of watching people go around in circles throwing band-aids over everything instead of dealing with the real source of our problems.
You say it’s very tragic artists will be replaced by machines. Unregulated AI is projected to affect many industries to the point that the Dutch government is doing a study this year because of fears of mass unemployment and the collapse of their economy.
So just curious why you choose to use unregulated AI and don’t seem concerned about the profound economic consequences from unregulated AI? Do you think you will be unaffected by mass unemployment?
Seems you are angry at capitalism. In 2008, the banks almost destroyed the global economy. If we were ruled by capitalism, well it would have. We would have just let banks keep going until the capitalist marketplace corrected itself. But we aren’t ruled by capitalism, governments stepped in to protect the banks, to protect people and created new regulations for banks. The world we live in isn’t controlled by capitalism or technology, it’s based on people making choices, it’s based on democracy.
You are making a choice to use unregulated AI. you are making a choice not to push for regulations to protect your fellow man. If the future is dark, you can blame capitalism, but really, that’s just avoiding your responsibility to make good decisions that prevent that future. After all, if the problem isn’t people like you engaging in an app built upon theft but capitalism, where’s your solution to the “problem” of capitalism?
I was brought to your site for the first time thanks to a tweet. I enjoyed reading this! I appreciate the time you took to write this. Take care!
Don’t you just love people who argue with the opinions of others while hiding behind a pseudonym?
Why would a pseudonym matter? Are you implying you would go straight for character assassination than addressing the content of what they said?
I’m sure you’re just frustrated you can’t resort to favorite tactics, that one of ad hominems or intimidation. You certainly sound like the type with your curiosity of someone’s identity as if that matters one iota in what they said.
Try again, Arnie. This is the web, people can call you out whenever they want and there is nothing you can do about it.
“Bravely spoken.” 🙂
Why would I not bravely speak? Do you think I’m afraid or something? You haven’t got a leg to stand on, Arnie.
The fake name and email would imply that you are indeed “afraid or something”.
I really wish you felt comfortable enough to express your opinions on here without the constant need to hide behind a fake name or IP. It would go a long way toward people actually caring about what you have to say.
Read that word again. Imply.
You, too, are confused. I don’t need approval for what I say.
Wrong on both accounts. You’re doing well!
What a complete propaganda blog and pure hypocrisy.
Plenty of Artists who are not afraid technology have happily adapted AI in their workflows.
These are the people who stand to get all the jobs in the future, because they will deliver faster and higher quality work against slower and more expensive Artists that refused to get with the times.
We’ve seen it all play it before. Horse Riders couldn’t stop Cars from surpassing them in every way. Getting mad at progress doesn’t make you smart, it makes you look like a sore loser.
Ah, the good ol’ ‘horse and buggy’ analogy. It’s not about technological advancement replacing an old technology. Artists are not technology. If you want to make a proper analogy, AI is like bringing a forklift to a body building event. Can you lift more? Yes. But that’s not the point of the event. AI may make better art for you, but it in no way will make you a better artist.
“Artists are not technology. ”
Are you drawing directly from your flesh? No.
Everything from pencils to Photoshop are tools that are used in making Art.
AI represents the most powerful one of all and those who ignorantly reject it will again, get outmatched and replaced just like when Cars took over.
” If you want to make a proper analogy, AI is like bringing a forklift to a body building event. Can you lift more? Yes. But that’s not the point of the event. AI may make better art for you, but it in no way will make you a better artist.”
Commercial Art has never been like this, ever.
It’s ok to make Art as a hobby using whatever method you like best.
But if you’re expecting to make money off your hobby while rejecting progress, then that’s exactly where AI is going to replace those jobs.
Consumers will always prefer the inexpensive and fast option and new tools give them exactly that.
Your very professional name makes your arguments all the more insincere and bloated.
I don’t think you understand that this is beyond a discussion about a tool. Artists who use AI in their workflows aren’t the ones on top here. Their jobs aren’t any safer. To use AI, you trade away purpose, integrity, and intention for output speed, so comparing quality of the end product is subjective. They’re just loading the same gun that’s pointed at them when they pay, promote, and use these services.
“Your very professional name makes your arguments all the more insincere and bloated.”
I prefer to live in a world that values truth and rationality over fear mongers who don’t even understand the very thing they’re scared of.
“Artists who use AI in their workflows aren’t the ones on top here. Their jobs aren’t any safer.”
Their productivity is literally unstoppable. They’re not wasting time idling on a single task, they are always growing clients and giving them what they need instantly.
This is a futureproof tactic as the world shift towards on demand services.
“To use AI, you trade away purpose, integrity, and intention for output speed, so comparing quality of the end product is subjective. They’re just loading the same gun that’s pointed at them when they pay, promote, and use these services.”
See what I mean? This is what we grown adults call “jealousy”.
If you can’t keep up with a machine that does a better job than you, that’s you’re fault. The world should not handicap technology because you refuse to take the L and accept progress.
“the jobs in the future…”
Salvator Mundi – $450.3 Million.
Interchange – $300 Million.
The Card Players – $250 Million.
Nafea Faa Ipoipo – $210 Million.
Number 17A – $200 Million.
Wasserschlangen II – $183.8 Million.
I see. A.I is so strong, it’s so well paid… I’M SO AFRAID! There is no space for who paint without a algorithm now. Thank you for open my eyes, I’m not a sore loser anymore.
That makes no sense. Are you saying every traditional non A.I person is selling their works for multi-millions of dollars?
No, only the top 1% of the Artists can actually live a life like that.
The vast majority who make their income off illustrations, movies, games, graphic design are competing directly with a new tool that creates high quality pictures or animation in SECONDS for FREE.
So I will say it again: keep on denying or hating technology at your own peril. Just don’t act surprised why you aren’t being paid anymore for doing something obsolete.
Dude, don’t be silly, you know what I mean. In this blog there are some well recognized artists. We are talking about of and – happily – with great professionals in greats positions on the market.
They show their face, their name, their work, their career EVERY day. When we talking about art market, we talking about they.
These guys ARE the art market. At least much more than me and you together.
They know the real price, the real projects, the real work available, the ones who are interest of give their money for art… they making their lives of art.
I see the work of these people every day with great admiration and pleasure, I know they understand the points of their profession, because their profession are VISUAL, so you only need to SEE, they know what they talking about, there is just a matter of see. I’m an artist too, many years thinking and doing art, for me it’s even more clear how much these guys are far ahead of us, but even a non-artist will recognize that these guys know what they know what they talking about just watching their work.
And the problem is not that you discord about their points, the real problem is the way how you are putting your points. So, just re-think how you express yourself to be more clear in the future. Everyone has the right to disagree in a respectful manner.
“Dude, don’t be silly, you know what I mean. In this blog there are some well recognized artists. We are talking about of and – happily – with great professionals in greats positions on the market.”
Dude, this is like saying because Michael Jackson or Taylor Swift is rich, it must mean the average Musician is also on their level.
No, that’s an unrealistic standard to apply or evens suggest that’s how markets work.
AI disruption starts off small and is working it’s way to the top. People who use to find easy jobs drawing a book cover for example, wont be needed as much when a cheap and faster AI Generation can service many people with less effort.
With AI being able to generate voices or create realistic videos, that too will eat away at people who use to make millions off easy voice acting or creating thousand dollar commercial videos.
Artists who refuse to adapt to these changes are not going to be seen as some kind of revolutionary Picasso in the future. It’s just basic common sense that machines continuing to get better and output higher quality work than what use to take a Human a lifetime means you shouldn’t expect to get rich off an obsolete skill.
You’re distorting the argument and it’s not the first time you’ve done it here. I was very clear in saying that Dan dos Santos, Donato Giancola, Greg Manchess – naming just a few to clarify – and all contributors to this blog are PART – again avoiding the risk of distortion – of the best we have on the market. So obviously I’m not talking about rich people like Taylor Swift and Michael Jackson. In fact, you had to do a lot of juggling to reach this conclusion.
The music and painting markets are completely different, and that’s okay, they are completely different paths. In the points we are touching on in the debate in this article, it still doesn’t make any sense to talk about other markets.
Mentioning that artists have used the tool is not final proof that it will be used on a large scale. Artists of great caliber will continue to make incredible art that will move people’s guts. Even if they are not at all aware of it, the impact is real and it happens. You’re the professional fact checker, you know that. And even within your own line of reasoning, just look at what happens in cinema/games/audiovisual, quantity increases to the detriment of quality and people notice and complain. I see people complaining about the effects of She Hulk, but I haven’t seen a single soul who hasn’t been amazed by Dan’s oils for Marvel.
From what I understand, no one here is refusing to adapt, but adapting is not just accepting things with your eyes closed. There are many ways.
Another valid piece of advice, be careful with common sense.
Ps: Oh!! In case you think the blog contributors are rich, that’s not the case, they’re just normal people like us. They work and pay their bills without much glamour.
“You’re distorting the argument and it’s not the first time you’ve done it here. I was very clear in saying that Dan dos Santos, Donato Giancola, Greg Manchess – naming just a few to clarify – and all contributors to this blog are PART – again avoiding the risk of distortion – of the best we have on the market. So obviously I’m not talking about rich people like Taylor Swift and Michael Jackson. In fact, you had to do a lot of juggling to reach this conclusion.”
So just to clarify things: are you saying AI will never touch real life paintings? Or that someone can’t print it and sell it for millions?
Because both are possible. The technology is just less convenient at the moment vs doing things digitally only.
“Mentioning that artists have used the tool is not final proof that it will be used on a large scale.”
The Internet, Cars, Cellphones. All these things started off small before they became so popular it was impossible to ignore.
It is a fact that AI works fast. In the hands of a skilled Artist, it’s even FASTER.
Combine this in a world where people are always looking to save money while getting something of serviceable value and the conclusion is obvious.
We see the effects already. Again, book covers or DnD Portrait commissions use to be easy sources of income for Artists. But the fact AI is good enough to make these images that even look better than what traditional Artists would charge disrupts this.
You can follow the logic and it will impact EVERYTHING. People would take free movies they can make themselves, instead of paying money to watch the same thing but 5x more expensive.
That’s all I’m trying to say. You have to adapt to what’s coming if Art is your income. Otherwise, you can’t complain.
“From what I understand, no one here is refusing to adapt, but adapting is not just accepting things with your eyes closed. There are many ways.”
The original blog post is clearly in denial. Every critique ranging from “AI doesn’t let me be creative” has been debunked if you do an ounce of research of what serious Artists have done with it.
First two things.
1. I keep replying myself because the visualization is better. Including, this is a real feedback for the blog, long debates need space.
2. I’m really happy, because now we are both honest, fair and thinking together.
So, let’s go!
Clarifying your question. Both things. My intention in share that list is to show how art still established. Even with Koon and Picasso in the list we don’t see not even close to the top 10000 an A.I. piece. We have in this blog the living proofs that the market/people values human than anything.
And yes, I agree with you, both are possible. Sure. But to me at least, this don’t show that “human art” will be forgotten.
There will be just another branch of the market for this pieces.
I think your point ins’t that A.I will surpass human beings. Your point is how we as human beings are poorly organized as civilizing process. In many aspects, social, economic, cultural… Companies are considered entities as much as people. They are treated like people. “The health of a company”, “the speech of a company”, “the will of a company”. We live in a time where it is common to consider ourselves as a company. And if we fail economically, it’s our fault, because we are our own managers. Byung-Chul Han addresses topics like this in his The Burnout Society, I highly recommend reading it.
At this point, I will wait for more comments from you to keep the pace of this conversation harmonious.
And one last thing, about David is clearly in denial. I just completely disagree with that. Of course I could be wrong in my points, he could be wrong in his points. But to me just looking at his works, at his career at this point, it’s totally clear that he’s aware and being honest with himself and his path in painting. He will continue producing, following his ideals, and I absolutely doubt that at any point in his life, he will stop making a living from art because of A.I.
“Clarifying your question. Both things. My intention in share that list is to show how art still established. Even with Koon and Picasso in the list we don’t see not even close to the top 10000 an A.I. piece. We have in this blog the living proofs that the market/people values human than anything.”
If it’s accolades you are looking for, I am more than happy to provide sources of AI Artists who made record achievements or even won huge sums of money.
As far back as September 2022, an AI Artist came first place in the Colorado State Fair. More recently in 2024, Damián Gaume used AI and also won for his entry in a Pink Floyd contest.
You can value Human Art all you want and ironically, no one has actually said they’re taking that from you. But you will be disappointed if you hold steadfast to the idea that up and coming AI Artists aren’t being valued either by society.
I would even say right now, for all the so called “backlash” from traditional artists, the millions of normal everyday civilians have already accepted AI Art. There is proof that people are buying commissions or watching trending videos and none have anything against it.
“And yes, I agree with you, both are possible. Sure. But to me at least, this don’t show that “human art” will be forgotten.”
So now you can see my response above. Human Art isn’t forgotten, just like how Horse Breeders still exist today. But culture and society has changed so much, I would hazard to say if Horse Competitions are bigger than Car Sports like the Formula 1 for example.
“I think your point ins’t that A.I will surpass human beings. Your point is how we as human beings are poorly organized as civilizing process. In many aspects, social, economic, cultural… Companies are considered entities as much as people. They are treated like people. “The health of a company”, “the speech of a company”, “the will of a company”. We live in a time where it is common to consider ourselves as a company. And if we fail economically, it’s our fault, because we are our own managers. Byung-Chul Han addresses topics like this in his The Burnout Society, I highly recommend reading it.”
Just for the record, AI Supporters can be critical of economic systems. Ironically, AI is actually the best when it comes to uniting both the right-wing and the left-wing on this.
We know these tools are powerful, and it is in the best interest of humanity to push this research as fast as possible.
Because if AI has the effect of democratizing Art and giving billions of people a voice they never had before, we can just imagine the other benefits when it democratizes home ownership, medicine, and other things that traditionally only the 1% of society had a complete say or control over.
So in a way, AI does surpass Humanity, but that’s because current Humanity is flawed. If the last 1000 years has shown that Humans are greedy and bad at running things, we should be greatful that newer technology like Robots will finally end such suffering for good.
“And one last thing, about David is clearly in denial. I just completely disagree with that. Of course I could be wrong in my points, he could be wrong in his points. But to me just looking at his works, at his career at this point, it’s totally clear that he’s aware and being honest with himself and his path in painting. He will continue producing, following his ideals, and I absolutely doubt that at any point in his life, he will stop making a living from art because of A.I.”
Back in the 1930s, there was an article about Live Music Performers who were against the invention of Recorded Music. Back then, it was their job to provide the audio and soundtrack when a Movie played in a cinema. But the Record Player would clearly change that.
It didn’t mean their music was bad or they were untalented, but for Cinema Owners and even casual Movie Fans, a Record Player could provide music to an even bigger audience instead of just having to wait for a small group of people to perform.
What do you think happen to Live Music Players? Nearly a 100 years, I can’t name any modern Movie Theater that would hire these people when a Music system is much more cheaper and efficient.
The Musicians could still play their live gigs somewhere else but those who embraced technology never went anywhere.
This is the situation Artists are in today. As I’ve told other people, you can paint for a hobby and just enjoy the act as a fun experience. And that’s OK. But as AI Tech gets better, the ceiling for anyone to make the exact same product you do but in complete seconds instead of days or hours as Traditional Art is getting lower and lower.
The risk is on to you to gamble on someone wanting to pay millions of dollars for your work, if in the future anyone can press a button and make the same thing effortless. But it’s your money and life. Do you want you want.
Since you mention the 1930s, at the height of the Great Depression, 25 percent of Americans were unemployed.
Experts say 40 percent or higher of jobs will be replaced by AI and automation in the next 5, 20 years.
What’s funny is people like you talk about the people that don’t adapt will be left behind like it’s no big deal. Those 25 percent of Americans that were unemployed during the Great Depression dragged down the 75 percent that were working into poverty… because we live in a society not a self contained island.
So while you look down on people that don’t want to use AI to help it replace their job, remember in the aggregate, at a societal level, their lives affect yours and everyone you know. I’d rather have regulations to get to the point that everyone is comfortable with AI. I’m not a big fan of mass unemployment, personally.
@Jmh
The Great Depression had nothing to do with Automation.
You’re talking about an event triggered by stock market crashes, poor government policies, and reduced money supply.
“What’s funny is people like you talk about the people that don’t adapt will be left behind like it’s no big deal. ”
Where did I say that?
It is a big deal but it also means that the current system has always been rotten and needs replacing.
Considering AI can circumvent the errors made by Human-rule, I greatly prefer having the outcome of getting increased prosperity and a world that never has to work again.
I had a question about two points made in your article.
First, you said: “While style-chameleon artists were common in the era of in-house illustration departments at advertising firms, the current landscape rewards artists whose work is memorable and contributes something unique.”
Is this not implying that we’re just shifting back to the practices from “the era of in-house illustration departments”? I found this sentence to basically undercut your entire argument, as it makes it seem like trends in hiring practices for art is something that happens occasionally, and you are frustrated because the trend is moving away from your skillset, just like those “style-chameleon artists” were likely frustrated when the trend shifted away from their skillset and in the direction of hiring artists with a style that is “memorable and contributes something unique.”
Second, you said: ” I think about this every time I sit through a commercial on the Amazon Prime account that I’m already paying to use.”
This also seemingly undercuts your argument for the section it is in. It doesn’t make any sense, because just because you have an account called “Amazon Prime” doesn’t mean that you get access to everything that has the word Prime associated with it. Most people pay to use an Amazon Prime account because of the benefits associated with the buying/shipping Amazon side of it. When people want to use their Amazon Prime account for other things not associated with the buying/shipping side, they purchase a Prime Video account that doesn’t have commercials.
If I purchase a print from you right now, and six years from now you offer to sell that same print and include a bonus illustration with it, it would be absurd for me to be angry or feel cheated about not getting the same deal when I bought mine. You have the option to not sit through commercials on Amazon Prime, and you are choosing to not take that option because you feel like you are entitled to it via paying for something unrelated.
I would also like to know your thoughts on the underlying algorithms and artificial intelligence that is used in digital art programs, like Procreate. If I draw a line and continue to hold my pen at the endpoint, the line I’ve drawn snaps into a perfectly straight line. I can then choose to select specific parts of that line and have it bend into whatever curve I would like it to. Is asking an AI to draw a straight line for me somehow different than using an AI to make a line I drew straight or curved?
Good questions.
No, I don’t think that we’re shifting back to in-house art departments. Or at least, I don’t yet see evidence of that in my own industry. Some parts of the industry are going to be more vulnerable to this than others. Editorial illustration comes to mind due to the need for speed and disinterest in copyright. Whichever future comes to pass, freelancers will still benefit from standing out. Whether you are competing against other freelancers or an in-house AI retoucher, the only reason a client will think of or hire a freelancer is because you can contribute something of unique value.
The example of ads in paid streaming services is an off-hand example, but it does represent a service which started as one thing and got worse and more expensive over time while also displacing an existing industry. When streaming services came along to oust cable, it was cheap, ad free, there were few companies, and their inventory of material was pretty deep. Netflix might be a cleaner example because it is *only* a streaming service, but ten years ago a Netflix plan was $8, ad free, and had a fairly reliable library of movies and shows. Currently, you can pay $16-$23 for ad free or pay $7 with ads. Most streamers seem to be adding a “with ads” option and jacking the ad free prices way up. Amazon comes to mind because ads just suddenly started showing up in my streams. And the fact that there are now far more streamers means the library of content once held by just a couple companies is being divided into Netflix, Amazon, Apple, Hulu, Paramount, HBO, etc. And while many of these companies are creating original series and movies, it seems those deals are way worse for the creators than theatrical and cable and broadcast deals had been. Ride-share vs taxis is another example. Amazon taking over book retail is another. In some cases the user experience is mixed, but in all of these cases the people the disruptor relies on to function (entertainment professionals, taxi drivers, and authors and publishers) end up squeezed with worse deals or in an industry with less workers rights and protections than they previously had.
Your comparison to buying an object is confusing. I’ve been paying for and enjoying Prime streaming for years and years. Suddenly there’s ads in my streams. I would call that a reduction of service. Or conversely, my Netflix is still ad free, but only because they have doubled the cost and, incidentally, cut the inventory. I have the option to take a cheaper plan if I am comfortable with a reduction in service.
I don’t use procreate so I have no direct opinion on it, but what you’re describing does not sound like generative A.I.
“These programs are designed to undercut working artists with fast, cheap, and “good enough” until work is devalued to the point that artists are forced out because they can’t make a living.”
I don’t think that this is why the AI technology was developed, you are taking it too personally. However it is certainly a side effect. The ONLY savior for working illustrators is that AI images, at least straight out of the generator, cannot be copyrighted.
One of the biggest consequences of AI imagery is it’s effect on the psyche of artists, which is rarely discussed. My major canvas paintings can easily require 200 hours of work to achieve. I have experimented with AI quite a bit with rather amazing results that are generated in seconds. There can be an underlying feeling of futility and doubts about the meaning of being an artist resulting from this disparity!
“I don’t think that this is why the AI technology was developed, you are taking it too personally. However it is certainly a side effect. The ONLY savior for working illustrators is that AI images, at least straight out of the generator, cannot be copyrighted.”
The copyright thing is such a non-issue.
Like first of all, AI images already look indistinguishable from Human pictures. The days of blatant artifacts are behind us, and skilled AI Users can already fix those mistakes in 2 seconds.
And second, just take an AI image and make a few tweaks in Photoshop. Now it’s “human-assisted”.
This comment section seems to be full of pro artists and I have a question.
Professional Fact Checker says that AI Art is indistinguishable from human pictures. Do you all agree?
I haven’t had that experience. After more than one year of seeing Stable Diffusion and Midjourney output, I grew to love more the imperfections, composition, and look of illustrations done by artists.
I haven’t seen any AI doing what David Palumbo or many other great illustrators achieve.
I’m a music composer and AI has reached music as well. So far I have experienced similar things, the technical level is great, but it tends to lack narrative, structure, and individuality.
I think mostly everybody with a basic visual literacy (developed as either an artist or as a consumer) can instantly spot synthetic images, if not through glaring artifacts then simply by context or, ironically enough, by pattern recognition.
But I believe one of the most important things to keep in mind regarding this issue when talking to non-artists is that whether the machine output can or can not be told apart from human-created images is beside the point. Even if somebody can truthfully not spot the difference, and considers the cultural/artistic component of even commercial visual products pointless taking pride in simply looking at everything through a pragmatic consumer’s perspective, accepting a mass-produced, unethically-sourced product as having the same logistical and commercial worth as the alternative merely makes that person a not particularly smart consumer (or, of course, a hopeful scammer).
“I think mostly everybody with a basic visual literacy (developed as either an artist or as a consumer) can instantly spot synthetic images, if not through glaring artifacts then simply by context or, ironically enough, by pattern recognition.”
I already posted the infamous “Sonic AI Doodle” meme that debunks this.
The technology will never get worse than this. Stable Diffusion or even Midjourney continue to get new updates all the time and the improvements are always drastic. Why pretend otherwise?
“Even if somebody can truthfully not spot the difference, and considers the cultural/artistic component of even commercial visual products pointless taking pride in simply looking at everything through a pragmatic consumer’s perspective, accepting a mass-produced, unethically-sourced product as having the same logistical and commercial worth as the alternative merely makes that person a not particularly smart consumer (or, of course, a hopeful scammer).”
Calling the biggest form of democratization in modern times “unethical” is beyond silly.
When the Camera was invented, everyone from the poor and disenfranchised could get a portrait of themselves instead of having to wait long times and paying high prices for a Portrait Painter to do it.
The Portrait Painter throwing a hissy fit means nothing anymore. Billions of people enjoy the freedom of taking pictures that was never available to them.
AI is the exact same. Billions of people can now make their own cartoons, movies, games thanks to AI. If you still want to be paid for doing a hobby, then get faster and sell your services cheaper to compete.
Hello Ivan, I speak just for myself in this point. But to me, 99%+ I can recognize which images are A.I. just with my eyes and experience. The most difficult are b&w landscape photographs, but they are still recognizable.
While some AI images may look indistinguishable from human made art to the eye, AI detection software can tell the difference.
Yes, copyright does matter to companies paying work for hire artists. They won’t be happy when they submit the art to the Library of Congress for copyright if it gets rejected by their AI detector. Doing tweaks to AI images in Photoshop will not get rid of the telltale signs of its origin.
Of course the technology is changing rapidly, so who knows how it will be in the near future.
“While some AI images may look indistinguishable from human made art to the eye, AI detection software can tell the difference.”
It absolutely doesn’t. Human Artists have submitted their work through these same detectors and they got flagged as well.
“Doing tweaks to AI images in Photoshop will not get rid of the telltale signs of its origin.”
And what telltale is that? And why wouldn’t Photoshop fix it when Artists use it to correct mistakes EVERYWHERE?
https://i.imgur.com/yKUSkA0.jpeg
There is zero logic in fighting the latest technology. The genie is out of the bottle. Cat is out of the bag. AI is here to stay and will only get more popular.
Since my last post had a link (I was using a source), my reply didn’t go through so I’ll address this quickly.
AI detection software is flawed. It has flagged Human Art which is clearly wrong. Studies have also been done that again, found that most modern Humans struggle to tell the difference between man-made and non man-made images before.
Sadly I can’t link to my sources on this blog but if you really want to know I can direct you to some google searches…
“Doing tweaks to AI images in Photoshop will not get rid of the telltale signs of its origin.”
There are AI Tools that let you input your own doodle or sketch, let the machine assist, and then a Human draws over it again.
Like, even a crude stickman is still good enough for AI to work with.
The technology has come a long way since the days of early machine made pics being blobs. AI is even being used and built directly into Photoshop where it can up-res and restore broken images.
There are a number of misconceptions in David’s post. But at the heart of it, and many similar arguments against AI, is a core misunderstanding of the role of art and artists. You can see it in the way David speaks about art making. He identifies certain aspects of what art is but can’t quite piece it all together to understand what makes artists unique and significant. As a result, he has trouble integrating it down to a principle that apply to all forms of picture-making such as AI. Referring to it as poison.
The purpose of art is to communicate your values, perspective, ideas, or worldview in a creative manner. Art is the selective recreation of reality based on your value judgments. A process by which an artist presents his or her unique perspective of the world. A means of bringing abstract ideas and emotions into a concrete form that others can experience and understand.
Good art is one that communicates its ideas clearly and effectively while keeping the audience engaged. But it is in what you are communicating, the values and ideas presented in the work, that resonates with the audience and attracts them. If you combine good craftsmanship with values that the audience agrees with, then they love the work. But the craftsmanship is merely a vehicle to communicate the message to the audience.
What makes artists unique is that they are able to identify their values, interests, and perspective, and creatively communicate them effectively to their audience. They do so by understanding and using the principles of picture-making or storytelling. Regardless of the tools they use to do so. Whether they use a pencil, a brush, a camera, or AI. This is why artists who use AI do better work than those who are not creatives using AI. They know how to best steer it to communicate what they want.
(Note: In commissions or illustrations for clients, you are communicating their ideas but you are generally in agreement with it. You wouldn’t illustrate propaganda posters glorifying Stalin for example. In a narrative project, you are drawing several works to illustrate a story. So the judgment is on the overall story and what it communicates, rather than on one single painting depicting a specific scene. In a large studio, you are working on one vision for a project with a general perspective you also agree on. If you work at Pixar, you are not expecting to work on an animation glorifying the holocaust for example).
The first misconception artists tend to have is that somehow the artist loses their “voice” by using something like AI. After all, it’s not your art, right? It’s not your “voice”. You are losing yourself when you hand over the process to AI.
Here is a misunderstanding of the role of the artist and values. The artist who likes to paint fluffy bunnies and pretty flowers, does not suddenly paint gory macabre images when they use ink to draw. An artist has a consistent philosophical outlook regardless of the media they use. And this also includes using AI. If they like drawing cats, they will continue to make pictures of cats and similar sentiments with ai. They are using ai, to continue to create pictures that depict and communicate their values and the things they find of significance.
For an artist, one’s “voice” is a sincere understanding of one’s own values and interests. Graduates from art school who go off into the open world sometimes have to spend their early days trying to find their voice. Asking themselves who they really are and what sort of work they want to do that excites them. They have to do some soul-searching and find themselves. When one understands themselves better and what values they agree with, they are better able to communicate it in their works. When you refer to an artist’s voice, what you are referring to is a consistent perspective the artist holds and shares in their work at that period of time.
The second misconception is in this thinking that your “voice” is your style. A style is merely a tool to help communicate your ideas and values. But they are interchangeable between pictures. You can use one style to accentuate one idea and switch to another in a different picture to communicate another idea. You can even use different styles to communicate the same idea. There are multiple solutions. Each just carry the message and accentuates it in a slightly different manner. This is why the notion that you are losing yourself when you hand it over to AI is insignificant.
You are not your style, you are far more than that. The reason people mistakenly mix a “voice” with a “style” is because once an artist identifies the perspective, idea, or worldview they want to communicate, they tend to pick out a style to communicate it with. And either they really enjoy making works in that style or in part due to laziness they just stick to it for a bit of time. If it works why change it, right? Making works by hand takes time so why spend it experimenting with more styles when you got something that works and you can use it now.
But that’s not what’s important. What makes you unique is not some special style. But rather it’s in what you’re communicating and the creative way you communicate it to your audience. That’s what matters most and separates you from everyone else. That’s what is consistent. That’s what draws the audience to your work. They agree with your sentiments and outlook. They enjoy your interests and the engaging way you present them. It’s you, the artist that’s important. You are what’s consistent in all your works. Regardless of what tool you use to do them with.
To illustrate this, imagine using some impressionist style to paint pretty flowers. You attract an audience who also finds what you painted beautiful. They agree that the flower is beautiful and worth celebrating in a painting. Here the implicit message in the work from the artist might be “I find this beautiful” or “There are things in life that are beautiful, significant, and worth celebrating”,
Now imagine you painted with the same impressionist style, but instead did a painting of a dark gory scene of people suffering, guts hanging out, decay, and pain celebrated throughout the canvas. That same audience would not enjoy this work, even if you have the same impressionist style you used to paint the picture of flowers. How can this be if it’s the same style and the same artist painted it by hand? The reason is that the message communicated in this instance is one that says “Life is pain and misery. Humans are a plague and happiness is not achievable”. Whatever you create and curate to your audience, is a reflection of you and the philosophical premises you’ve accepted. The style one chooses to communicate a message is usually only selected to accentuate that idea.
The third misconception that some artists tend to have is in thinking that there is a specific way one must make a picture for it to be “real” art. The thinking here is that it is in the process itself that brings significance. The collection of small nuances an artist does by hand in making a picture. This is the area in which you find arguments against AI like “it’s a slot machine” or “it’s a restaurant you order in” or any other phrases and illustrations contrasting AI automation against “true” artists creating by hand.
The misunderstanding here is again in the role of the artist and art (it all comes back to the same core principle). In the past, creating art was solely a product of human effort at every stage. It was just accepted that way because there was no alternative. As a consequence, it is easy to think that this is what matters in art making. But it is not what is significant about artists and art.
Within the immediate moment someone comes across a painting, they decide whether they love it or not. They do so because they agree with the values it represents. How long it took to create, what school that artist attended, the brands of paint one used are all irrelevant. A story or detail may add to the piece, but it’s the picture itself that takes primacy over all others. It does not matter whether you took 30 seconds or a year to create the piece. It is the picture presented before them that is judged by the audience.
Drawing and painting is a vehicle to share your ideas and values. We spent years learning the craft to effectively communicate in a creative manner. Learning to solve visual puzzles. But it was always just a means to get to what was actually important: the end picture itself. The ideas and values we are communicating. But it is not the only means of doing so.
When using AI, you are communicating your perspectives and values by selectively choosing what is made with the given tools. It does not just pump out images on its own volition without your command. You learn how to guide it to create the sort of pictures that communicate the idea you want. Whether it is with a large amount of control in the process or merely guiding it. It is arbitrary to claim that humans must be used in 100% of every facet of the production of a picture. Because that’s not what’s important.
Whatever means you choose, it’s about the message. To suggest that the artist must control every part of the process is not only an archaic idea already today, but is an inability to think on principle. This inability to think in principle is actually similar to when some artists claim that digital art is not art. To them, real art is when it is done by hand using traditional tools. And I also had one artist who argued with me claiming that art is only when painting from life. All other types of art were lesser art forms to him.
What these two examples represent is an inability to understand the fundamental of what art is. And then applying that principle to all facets of picture-making. It all comes back to the same principle. The method by which one chooses to make a picture doesn’t matter. It’s the picture they make and what they are communicating with it that matters above all else. Choose whichever method makes you happy. There is no wrong answer. Choose the one that you find most fulfilling. There is certainly a great deal of pleasure from working by hand for example.
If you enjoy painting from life, then AI won’t interest you because your art is about celebrating the real world around you. And other like-minded audiences will enjoy your work because they also share the same interests. If you enjoy working with complete control in every aspect of picture-making, then you will continue to do so and not use ai. You can build great self-esteem by solving visual puzzles in this way. Happy accidents and mark-making can teach you a great deal. Choose what works best for you.
I wont go into the rest of what you said in regards to the future of artists except to say I also disagree with all of that. But this reply is too long as it is and it would take yet another lengthy comment to address them as well. Frankly, I’m not even sure 90% of this comment will fit in here, so I’ll just stop here.
I’m happy for your time, attention and that your comment came in its entirety.
There are points to be highlighted. I disagree with what you say is the definition of art. And I think the A.I. problem isn’t in the usage, it’s prior, it’s about how the fundamentals of the thing are wrong in themselves. An incorrect principle cannot result in a correct end.
Furthermore, there are two distinct topics, human values and market logic. When the debate happens without distinction it becomes a mess.
Just as I think you’re not saying you have the universal truth about art, I don’t think I do either. I will present just one more view.
I completely agree with you when you say that
“To suggest that the artist must control every part of the process is not only an archaic idea already today”
But I completely disagree when you say
“but is an inability to think on principle.”
“is an inability to understand the fundamental of what art is”
“The purpose of art is to communicate”
“Good art is one that communicates”
“that resonates with the audience and attracts them”
The painting-work is not intelligible. It is inaccessible to thought. Thought cancels out reality in its becoming.
“The naming of thought is a way of appropriating what is being named. When we name, we lose the thing named and fall into the “trap” of thought, we “forget” the named and are left with the name, we replace the real experience with the word and the concept it carries.” (Nelson Macedo, The Artistic Theory of Form)
Art is not communication. Communication can be artistic, but art has no intention of being communicative. Art is a reality in itself. The big problem that students face when starting their studies is that when trying to design a chair they end up forgetting that they are not creating a chair like a carpenter, “the drawing of a chair” is not a chair, it is a drawing. The problems of the chair apply to the chair, the problems of the drawing apply to the drawing. The jobs are different. The painter who is concerned about the material of the glass in a bottle would be a better glassmaker than a painter.
Oscar Wilde said that an author who names a hoe after a hoe should be forced to use it instead of writing.
The Process, with a capital P, is a fact, a real entity and much greater than many other real entities. When we create, we are channels of the Process. He demands what he demands for the work to be created. Given the limitation of this space for a discussion of this magnitude, anyone interested in these reflections can look for the two ways of image formation: Kandinsky and Klee, and what they wrote about the creative process.
These topics like “What is Art?” or “The artistic theories of form” are extremely complex, these are my cents, I hope I contributed in some way, even if it wasn’t the clearest possible.
Ironically enough, this post in itself is riddled with misconceptions. You yourself are committing the same mistake as many others when you try to define art — ‘good’ art in particular — as something so extremely narrow. There are plenty of abstract pieces, films, and experimental forms of music that actually exist in clear defiance of having any clear or obvious message. It’s actually such pieces that I myself am the most strongly drawn to because of how unique they are and how dangerous a line such creators balance themselves on where they risk everything becoming total nonsense. To a lot, it may even seem to be little more than nonsense. To me, it is dangerous brilliance manifest into twisted, haunting beauty. Composers like Alexander Scriabin have forever left their imprint on me, because they seem to almost be bending light itself using nothing more than music that shifts and turns the longer you listen to it.
Art — ‘good’ art especially — is something extremely subjective and elusive. What sounds nightmarishly twisted and simultaneously ethereally beautiful to me may sound like total randomness to others.
That first point aside, I am not sure what the extent of your experience is with the creation of art to begin with if you think voice or style isn’t ‘real’, or not as important as the ‘message’ whatever that means. To me, style is perhaps of the utmost importance. There are certain styles or mediums that I find to be extremely boring, with AI generations being the worst offender since it is little more than the safe average between all the myriads of drawings scraped from the internet. The reason I can tell one artist apart from the others — even when one or more may be communicating the same ideas as others — is because of their stylistic choices. It can be in framing, in poses, emphasis, linework, angles, usage of things like foreshortening, etc etc all of these minute decisions all add up to give each artist their own unique style or voice. You are making a GRAVE mistake by writing this all off as irrelevant, because I assure you it is not to the vast majority of people when making decisions on which artists to follow. There are plenty of artists with whom I have plenty of overlap in regard to belief in x or y thing, but whom I have zero interest in because their style or voice is very boring. Oddly enough, you yourself seem to acknowledge the critical importance of it in some parts when you say things like ‘it is important to keep things engaging’. Then it’s not just about “people agreeing with your views,” is it?
Third, you seem to be under the misconception that “voice” and “style” are two things completely separate from each other. They are not. When I had dabbled with these generators, they have never done what I wanted them to do even when feeding them my own work directly for reference. The line thickness is different, the lighting, the mood, angle, proportions, the list goes on. It was atrocious, and more importantly it was deeply unsatisfying. Why? Because I saw none of myself reflected in the output whatsoever. Because what I had put into the machine had been spat out as the mean aggregate of all other artists and thus had none of the artistic choices unique to me that would’ve been my voice and my way of expressing myself. It was boring, unsatisfying, inaccurate to what I envisioned, and I absolutely hated it. It wasn’t my voice and I saw absolutely nothing of mine reflected in it. The machine had taken what I had put in and only kept the most generalizable characteristics and little else. There was nothing of mine left, at all
Visual abstract works are exactly that: abstract. They do not communicate anything concrete and thus are not art. They instead fall in the category of design or decoration. That does not mean you can’t enjoy them though. They serve a different function and can be very useful. It can be used to decorate a vase or bowl. An interior decorator may hang up abstract works to accentuate the design of a room. A gradient can be used in the background of a YouTube video with someone in front of it talking. It can be the wallpaper of a website. Or used throughout the design of the UI for an app.
In regards to film, you’d have to be specific about what you’re referring to. A film consisting entirely of random blobs of incoherent smears or nothing but a black screen for an hour, says nothing. A film that is extremely dark and completely out of focus is an example of something bad because you can’t make out anything that is going on.
I never referred to style or voice as not being real. Rather that they are two different things. Style is not the same as your voice. Style is in the realm of picture-making or craft, voice is in the realm of concepts and values. An artist can switch styles if they want to, but the voice is the artist. They are the thread that runs through all their works, regardless of the styles used in them. You can certainly enjoy a style, but it is nothing without its foundation. It is the icing on the cake.
Nor do I say that the principles of picture-making is irrelevant and not significant. It is the vehicle by which you communicate your values. Without it, you couldn’t communicate. The principles of picture-making is what I was referring to when I used “engaging” or “the creative way you communicate it to your audience”. Although style falls under the umbrella of picture-making, style and the principles of picture-making are not the same thing.
“Visual abstract works are exactly that: abstract. They do not communicate anything concrete and thus are not art. They instead fall in the category of design or decoration.”
This is such a blatantly ridiculous and outright self-contradictory statement, moreso than your first post, that I am now questioning if you are even approaching this topic in good faith. Decorations are still art. Design is still art. Not that abstract forms of music, art, or film can be called purely “decoration”. Art does not need to have a “message”, whatever that means in this context. Art can be purely aesthetics, or purely focused on eliciting one emotion or another through visuals alone with no clear “message”. It often is highly subjective and open to interpretation. Moreover, every single example you listed for what fits under ‘decoration’ is still something artistic. The interior of a bowl or room, the backdrop of a video, the wallpaper of a site or the UI of an app, all of these require an artistic approach so as to elicit something positive or desired from whoever is walking into the room or using the bow, or visiting the website. If what they looked like did not harmonize with the rest of the whole in some way, it would stand out in a displeasing way which would not be ideal unless the point of it was to be unappealing such as in some kind of comedic skit with potty humor.
On voice, you are just completely wrong and I don’t know where you are pulling your definition from. You can even look this up on everyone’s favorite search engine. Voice is just how you express yourself and how that distinguishes you from other artists, yes even those who have the exact same overall message as you. It includes technical and stylistic choices. I don’t know where you got the idea that it’s just the ‘message’, unless you came here with a hyper-political mindset where ‘voice’ is just purely about the message and nothing more — which may actually explain a great deal of what you’ve typed.
You yourself once again fight against your own argument when you say things like “style is a vehicle for communication, without it you cannot communicate”. Keyword, communication. AKA, your ‘voice’ through which you communicate.
Design is making things more visually appealing and pleasing for an audience in a project. Design is used in art, but it is not art in itself. Decoration in this context, is applying visual design elements to an object (like pottery) to enhance it so it is more visually appealing. When I was referring to decoration in my previous comment, I was strictly referring to abstract decorations.
Design can use elements such as color, line, and others that have been used in works of art, but using those aspects alone does not equate to something being art.
Rather it is in the use of these elements to depict and represent a specific object or entity in a picture, that distinguishes an abstract piece from art. By depicting a specific object or entity, it is a representation of its concrete concept. For example, a line shaped like a bear represents and communicates a bear. In turn, it can communicate a narrative, perspective, or value (more on this later in the comment) because those can only be derived from a conceptual context, rather than an abstract one.
A design or an abstract mark (like an isolated energetic brush stroke) can incite emotion from the audience. But the emotion is based on an abstract and not on a concrete concept. By its nature, it is ambiguous. For example, a book consisting of nothing but random combinations of letters to make indistinguishable words like “ewjksdfhjskdjkfhaa” over and over again does not represent any specific concrete concepts. Or a film of only a white screen and a high-pitched screeching sound doesn’t say anything.
That doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy them though. You may find the design of a website or brochure to be great. It has many uses. But simply enjoying something alone does not distinguish it as art.
In regards to your saying “Communicates a message whatever that means”: When you are making an image, you are inevitably making choices in the process. You are choosing what you want to depict in the picture and how you want to depict it. You are making these choices whether you are drawing/painting, making a relief print, taking a picture with your camera, etc. You are deciding what sort of image interests you and is worth making.
By deciding what subject to depict, you are isolating entities or concepts and finding that it is significant enough to you to represent in your work. By doing so, you are communicating a premise and idea. Every artwork you do is a reflection of your interests and your choices. And your philosophical outlook.
You might make an image because perhaps you think it’s pretty, or it’s interesting, or it’s cool/fun, or because you find an idea funny to illustrate. For example, if you paint a flower, you may have decided to paint it because you thought it was pretty. You want to celebrate it by capturing its beautiful qualities. By deciding to paint this specific subject, you decided that this was worth depicting. And underneath your decision is a message that you are communicating. A philosophical premise that you agree with. A value.
The underlying premise and message in the case of the flowers might be “I find this beautiful” or it might be “There are things in life that are beautiful, significant, and worth celebrating” or it might be “Happiness is achievable and worth pursuing”.
These are implicit in the choices they make. Whenever they think “Oh that’s a cool idea to draw” or “Oh that would be beautiful to paint” or “I want to get a shot of that”, they’ve already instantly made that connection internally. By seeing a flower and wanting to paint it, they’ve already internally viewed it as a value based on their philosophical outlook, and are acting on it.
An artist’s voice is the recognition and understanding of your interests, values, and outlook at a given time. It is a general outlook and perspective that you consistently communicate in your artwork. It is universal, regardless of the tools and media you use to communicate it.
In order to visually communicate it though, the artist understands and uses the principles of picture-making. The principles of picture-making refer to a series of fundamentals on how to best communicate your idea within a picture. It is the understanding of the importance and use of shape, line weight, lights/darks, color, edges, texture, value grouping (light/dark), design, composition, pose, action, story-telling, and more in making art. It is what illustrators like Dean Cornwell, Norman Rockwell, and Howard Pyle understood well. These are also universal, able to be applied to all forms of visual art. Hence why they are principles.
With the marriage of these two universals, the artist can make any artwork they choose to pursue. Using any variety of tools, media, and styles they wish to use.
I did not say “Style is a vehicle for communication, without it you cannot communicate”. I specifically said the principles of picture-making is. I ended my previous response by saying style and the principle of picture-making are not the same thing.
A style is a specific consistent harmony of marks. It can be a series of dots that encompasses a painting, it can be a series of large brushstrokes, or a variety of thin lines throughout a drawing. It can also be a combination of them as well. One could have thin marks, mixed with flat graphic shapes of colors.
In contrast, the principles of picture-making are a universal understanding that can be applied to any type of artwork using any media or style. An artist does not lose their voice when they try a different approach. The different approaches though still support the voice, because they are selected and used based on how appropriate they are for the message communicated. One would likely not use the Memphis style to depict a dramatic scene of Ceasar’s assassination for instance. But there are multiple solutions to any given problem. Not just one.
What perhaps spurred part of these replies, was that I said “That’s not what’s important” in my original comment. But that was in reference to having to use one specific style. Context matters. An artist may use one specific style because they really enjoy it, but what matters is that they recognize their voice and understand the principles of picture-making. With those two, they can tackle anything.
For some reason, I cannot reply to the most recent post as the button is not appearing. I will reply to this one instead.
I will focus primarily on your example with the flower, because it feels there is something contradictory in here again. Primarily, you mentioned the ‘message’ of the artist might’ve been something as simple as “I find this beautiful”. If that is the case and that is a valid message to you for something to be considered art, I don’t think you have any option other than to acknowledge the fact that even abstract forms of art can have the same type of message behind them. There are designs and decorative choices whose sole purpose is to elicit a particular emotion or thought. It can be something as simple as using smooth wavey lines or shapes to indicate something free-flowing or gentle, or aggressive and sharp edges to indicate danger or anxiety. These choices are not random and chaotic. They are not taken without any thought or consideration. They are often very deliberate, and with the associations in mind that I listed and many more often shaped by our experiences with the world and the associations we develop with them. Just because a design or abstract piece is not depicting something ‘real’ like a flower does not mean that its overall intent is any less or more than the piece where the artist simply painted something they found to be beautiful or calming.
Regarding voice and style, I want to highlight the sentence “An artist does not lose their voice when they try a different approach.” I agree, they do not. What I would say is they instead explore a different avenue with their voice, the way a voice actor might portray different styles or characters by tweaking their vocal intonations this way or that. They do not lose their voice, if anything they might expand it. Additionally, I would say the same applies to the statement “An artist does not lose their voice when they depict a different message”. After all, people rarely stay the same throughout the entirety of their lives, and they also do not hold onto the same interests until the end of time. Some may take a keener interest in trains, others in depicting vibrant illustrations of beaches. That does not mean they have lost their voice or supplanted it with another. If someone who normally paints flowers also has a side to them that depicts gruesome images reflecting the extreme darkness and corruption present in some members of humanity, it does not mean they have lost their voice.
Perhaps I did come off a bit too strong in my previous two responses — in part I was very irritated because it is a huge peeve of mine when I feel art is being too narrowly defined in such a way that, to me, makes no sense, and for what it’s worth I personally have no problems acknowledging AI art as ‘real’ art, whatever that term means. Anyway, indeed ‘voice’ is more than just your style. However, ‘voice’ is more than just what message you are conveying through a piece as well. Both of these elements, I would say, are parts of what make up your voice as an artist. For me, stylistic and other aesthetic choices are a huge part of it. Far too huge for me to ever be satisfied with using AI for art such as it exists today. As I mentioned before, I myself have used these machines when they had first come out and had dabbled with them every rare once in a while, and not once have I ever felt that anything of mine was being represented. What came out the other end of the prompt was too generalized, too bland, too unlike the artistic choices that I would’ve made had I been in control of the process from beginning to end. The lines were not right and did not accentuate the places I wanted and thus were not reflective of me and what I like, the colors were wrong and bland and thus not reflective of me again, the lighting was the same dull lighting present in all the AI art you see online and thus once again not reflective of me and my preferences. Foreground and background choices also were not at all the same ones I would’ve made, not even remotely, so even in terms of object choices within the piece the AI was not reflective of my voice. I had also fed the machine direct reference pieces of some of my own characters, and it would often change the proportions entirely to something wholly unrecognizable and generic. It would give to me not with the characters that I had spent years designing and mulling over and carefully thinking out what it was they represented to me, but instead random and nondescript strangers who I did not recognize and felt no attachment to whatsoever. I could go on all day and night, but those aforementioned things are probably enough to illustrate my point.
The key distinction between art and abstract works is one of epistemology. In which art is only possible through a conceptual context. Through the act of integrating parts, sensations, elements, or components into an inseparable whole or unit until you eventually arrive to a “concept”. Another way to think of integration is just “putting together”.
For example, you don’t view a person as just a floating group of sensations as you might have as a newborn child. Your mind integrates them into percepts and then you eventually come to the concept of “man”. In the same way, you can view the common factors of a variety of tables and integrate them into the single concept of “table” which unites all forms of tables into a single whole unit. From there you can keep integrating integrations to eventually arrive to the concept of “furniture”.
It is only through these integrations that one could eventually, through several layers of integration, arrive at the concepts of “values”, “theme”, “a philosophical perspective”, “idea’”, “message”, “meaning”, etc… Value is itself a concept and trying to reduce it down to an abstract or sensation is a contradiction in terms. They can only be communicated in the realm of concepts because they are concepts themselves. These very words I’m using now and these ideas that I’m sharing in sentences, can only be shared in the concrete and in the realm concepts.
Otherwise is like saying “I want to communicate the suffering and endurance of the Parisian people held captive during the occupation of Paris by Nazi Germany in WW2” and doing so with a canvas painted in a shade of yellow. To arrive at this idea involves an enormous amount of integration and levels of concepts such as “war”, “Paris”, “ethics”, “rights”, “suffering”, “endurance”, “occupation”, and more. Concepts cannot be communicated through the abstract or sensation. By attempting to do so, you are context-dropping, by tearing apart concepts down to abstracts.
One way to try and visualize this is to think of trying to fit a 747 plane down a narrow city alley meant only for a single pedestrian to walk through. Except that this example isn’t even a good one because concepts and the abstract are not on the same playing field. They are different.
It’s what we do every day. I could not reply to you now without understanding an incredible array of concepts such as the computer, and the internet, all the way to understanding that there is a person on the other end commenting back. Art is a conceptual act.
From this understanding, one can find a distinction between “voice” and “style”. I don’t blame anyone for not recognizing a difference. It’s not easy to distinguish because it almost happens simultaneously or within a short period when making art. But they are two different things, much like within H20, hydrogen is hydrogen and oxygen is oxygen.
In regards to voice, yes people do change. They do not stand still and for artists it is reflected in the works they do. Showing the new interests and outlooks they have on life. This is why when referencing voice in my previous reply I said it was “the recognition and understanding of your interests, values, and outlook at a given time”. “At a given time” refers to the period in which they hold that general outlook. But people change and so do their work as a result.
I’d forgotten to reply.
Regarding abstract art, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think a proper piece of art needs to have some clear or complex message to it in order to qualify as “real” art. It can be as simple as inspiring an emotion or flurry of emotions, like in the flower painting where the only point of it is to depict a form the artist found aesthetically pleasing. Whether or not the thing drawn is “real”, the simple purpose is to just elicit a basic emotion.
On voice, I just need to reiterate again the point that I myself had already dabbled with these machines. I even gave them my own artpieces to use as reference for the prompts I would feed it. Not once did it ever return to me something that was reflective of myself. It’s not merely a question of what the message is; it is also how dark the shadows are, how bright the highlights are, how intense the lines are, how high a contrast in the colors, what figures and shapes are emphasized, etc the list goes on and on. All of these choices are vitally important to an artist who is doing their best to convey a very specific message in a very specific manner. You cannot seriously tell me that all of these minute decisions don’t add up to create a larger message in a piece. I could, for instance, desire to create a piece where the framing is very small and claustrophobic to depict something anxious, as well as have the subject’s eyes opened wide and their mouth unhinged in a soundless moan of fear while they look over their shoulder at something that had just entered the dimly-lit room they were in. I can assure you right now that if I were to tell all of that to a machine, it would not return to me anything at all what I picture in my head when I envision that image. I already know the pose would be either bland or wrong if not both, the subject’s eyes would not be turning about to the right amount, the view angle would be off, I could go on but you perhaps get the point. None of it would be me, none of it would be my voice even by your own definition because the AI would not have nearly the same artistic approach to a piece as I would. It does not have my experiences, it has not developed my preferences, it knows nothing about me at all even when I feed it direct artwork belonging to me. All of my interests, and thus all my artistic choices, would be wholly lost in the process of me turning the entire thing over to a machine to interpret.
It seems like what troubles you is the notion of identity. That something has a definition and that it operates in a specific manner. In essence, saying “Why can’t I do what I want and claim it as whatever I’d like it to be? Who is anyone to determine what something is or is not?”. And this notion is eventually carried out by disintegrating everything down to meaningless blobs of sensations. It is ultimately an attack on Epistemology because of a dislike that things have a specific nature.
Regarding your criticism of AI: There seems to be some confusion. Particularly on the thought of it being static. First I will address the broad context and then narrow it down.
AI is not a tool you must operate with. An artist may have preferences on what method to use to make their images. Some will prefer to have more control over the process while others not as much. There is no wrong answer here. For example, one may choose to use ink because it provides a better avenue to communicate their ideas. If you decide that AI isn’t working for you, you’ll prefer to use something else. Use whatever means that works for you to accomplish the goal. Everyone will make their own choices that are best for them.
Now on a less broad level, the pictures that you make are not static in process. If you decide to use AI for example, the pictures you initially make with it are not necessarily the final product. An artist is free to manipulate and change them if they wish to. Whether doing so by using other AI, working on them by hand, or any combination of different approaches. Some artists using AI use different approaches in their workflow to get to their desired goal with the current tech.
I mention current tech because the tech itself is also not static. The limitations one may experience today will be improved on rapidly in newer versions in a matter of months or weeks. It does not stand still. There are also differences between AIs. Image prompts in MJ are only a loose approximation of the images you give it. It is not a true img2img or not meant as a direct copy of a specific style. Even the style reference in MJ is not a direct copy of the style but more of a general approximation within its own limited system. But that will continue to improve with more capable and advanced versions. On the other hand, you can train your own model in SD which gives a more accurate portrayal of the style you show it with say 100 images. In that case, you are able to use your model with img2img to have more control and keep the specific consistent look you aim for. However, there are limitations that can be addressed in either future versions or by the artist using other additional approaches alongside it. But ultimately, that’s not what’s important. A tool does not need to satisfy everyone who tries it. It won’t make everyone happy, just as all other tools and approaches in art don’t either. Some artists dislike digital painting, others dislike printmaking, collage, etc…
Thus when you make your specific criticisms about shapes, lights/darks, and other attributes, I find it to be confusing remarks because it has dropped context. One can choose to work by hand if they choose to or work in such a manner in combination with AI, or use AI entirely. It’s up to the artist to decide whatever method will satisfy them to accomplish their goal.
“None of it would be me, none of it would be my voice even by your own definition because the AI would not have nearly the same artistic approach to a piece as I would… All of my interests, and thus all my artistic choices, would be wholly lost in the process” Again, context is important and it seems like you have trouble with it. Try to ask yourself: Are my interests only conveyed in one way? What are artistic choices? Am I making any choices in the process with AI? Or does it just operate by its own volition without any guidance by the user whatsoever? Is the image it makes a final product for the artist or can the artist change things in it? If so, what does that say about the artist and what makes them unique? In turn, what is the role of the artist then in all methods and approaches?
Try to think in principle and that will help address a multitude of circumstances around the same context.
It’s less so about a definition being specific and more that I don’t think the definition provided really justifies excluding abstract art. As I keep mentioning, a piece’s purpose can be as simple as eliciting a basic emotion through the use of particular shapes or colors, and the choices made by an abstract artist can often be very deliberate and with a specific purpose in mind. Their experiences and how it has shaped their minds will determine how they choose to represent it on a canvas, which to me is just as real as someone looking at a flower and painting it because it is pleasant. What they are capturing is something real, something they are experiencing or have experienced, and are thus making an attempt to communicate it to the viewer by crafting an image around it.
In regards to AI and the use of more direct methods alongside it, there is a sliding scale for sure that can determine how much of yourself will shine through. However, I do need to point out that once you pass a certain threshold you cease to be someone commissioning a machine and instead become someone collaborating with a machine, with your preferences and experiences only becoming more dominant after you take more and more of the creative process directly into your own hands. Within that statement, there seems to be an acknowledgment that something of yourself is indeed lost to varying extremes depending on how much you yield over to a generator. This may be a nitpick, but I also need to voice my disagreement with the analogy of using different materials and likening that to an AI generator. A piece of chalk is not going to generate an entire picture for me with just a few words. The intended purpose of an art generator is to generate a complete piece, not merely a change in texture.
It is not allowing me to respond directly, so I’m responding here instead. Just because someone aims to do something or is deliberate in doing so does not alone constitute it as art. Neither is emotion the secret ingredient. In the same way, an attempt at communication alone does not constitute something as being art either. Writing this response to you now does not make it art. Even if I have feelings about it. “Experiences” cannot be communicated in the abstract.
You need to realize what you are actually advocating. In that it translates to anything and everything a person does being deemed as “art”. After all, whatever a person does and declares as art can be justified by an “emotion”, “whim”, “experience”, or any other factor they’d like. Someone might have a reaction to what they present and that would be enough. That mere chance is justification. Someone may spread feces against the wall and people may react in disgust. That’s a response and the person who did it probably had some emotion in mind before doing it. Or had an emotion while in the act. And who is to say that one must use particular shapes and colors to do so? Who can justify such exclusion? Who is anyone to have a definition that limits communication outside of shapes and colors visually? Suppose someone were to present nothing at all. Perhaps they represent it with a pedestal with no object on it. They felt very strongly about wanting people to experience nothingness when they presented nothing. Lots of feelings stirred in them while doing it. And people may react to it with their own feelings or in any other which way. On that basis any smear, mark on a canvas, or dirt on the ground someone put there can be declared as art because it’s just as “real”. Because it’s backed by emotions or feelings or some spiritual mysticism that is “outside of this world”. And who is to judge what is good or bad? By what mechanism can anyone use to determine such a thing? Either you get it or you don’t. Either you feel something or you don’t. That’s it, anything goes.
When anything can be justified by whims, nothing is art. Art has no definition and does not have any function or means of operation. You said: “It’s less so about a definition being specific and more that I don’t think the definition provided really justifies excluding abstract art” Read that again and think about what you actually said there. It’s quite remarkable. “I don’t like that things have a nature and operate in a specific manner, they should be dismantled or expanded so they can include other things I want them to” It’s like saying “I don’t like that water is wet as a liquid, it should also be simultaneously dry. Why should it exclude dryness? That’s not very nice.”. Everything in reality has a nature. It operates in a specific way and by certain mechanisms. Visual Art operates by concepts. And those who declare otherwise are in contradiction every day and in everything they interact with which also has a specific nature. These very words I type now can only be communicated via concepts. “skkjshkjfkjskjf” is not valid. Writing has specific mechanisms by which it operates. Saying otherwise is like sticking your head in a hole and declaring that the outside world doesn’t exist.
Your first sentence in your first response was: “Ironically enough, this post in itself is riddled with misconceptions.” Apparently what you meant by that was “There are no conceptions because there are no concepts”. I should have instead asked you to respond with gibberish incomprehensible words to explain it to me better. Or maybe with a little smear on a piece of paper to get the feeling across.
Regarding what you said about AI, I can tell you that this is yet again an inability to think in principle. An artist may choose any method to accomplish their goal whether through automation or by hand, or any combination. I presented other options as being available because it’s a fact. Not as some admission that they are necessary. Ink was presented to illustrate the context that people can have preferences. Not about automation. Declaring that one must create an image by hand or some degree of it is arbitrary. If by now providing a number of definitions and distinctions does not help you, then there really isn’t any more that can be done.
Yes, the website seems to not allow one to respond directly to a post after a string of replies passes a certain amount. I ran into the same problem.
Anyway, the conflict we are having right now is that there actually is no agreed-upon consensus on what is or isn’t art. You have many in the art community right now, for example, who would not even consider AI art “real” art for the reasons the writer of the original post listed, and more. Art is not something that has been rigorously defined the way “wet” has. It’s certainly not defined in the way you are asserting, otherwise “abstract art” would not be a phrase in the first place as abstract pieces would not be considered art. I’m not trying to relax the term to include things I want or exclude what I don’t want, otherwise I’d be trying to gatekeep AI generations as not being “real art”; the term is relaxed enough as it is, and we are constantly discovering new forms of art as technology progresses and society continues to evolve. I would not say that “EVERYTHING is art”, necessarily. I would instead say “just about anything CAN be art”.
Regarding your point on automation, I don’t think it all needs to be done by hand, necessarily, but there does need to be at least some meaningful degree of direct involvement. We would not, for instance, say that a person commissioning a piece is the same as an artist, even if they were guiding the artist they hired with sketches and verbal input. In order for their voice to truly start shining through, they need to have direct interactions with the canvas itself that eventually becomes a completed piece, and even then I would call it a collaborative effort that wasn’t entirely the commissioner or the prompter themself. Oddly enough, I myself was busy these past few days trying out AI for the umpteenth time. The machine gave back results that were at times interesting or even appealing to me, but it never captured my style. The degree to which my influence was present – and thus my voice and experiences existent – depending entirely on how closely I told the generator to stick with the reference material I gave it. Often times, it would still change the faces to unrecognizable strangers which was pretty frustrating, and it just ended with me once again coming away with the conclusion that I’d rather do the entire process myself. I could not take much if any pride in what the machine produced for me, not as an artist. Maybe as a story writer, I’d be more forgiving since my focus would primarily be on the narratives, but as an artist I could not once again find much if any satisfaction with AI because of how unlike me the illustrations were.
It is true that most artists do not have a clear definition of what art is or the role of the artist. It is a black box for many and that inevitably leads to problems when faced with new technology. If one doesn’t understand Art’s mechanisms, you are at the mercy of any arguments people make about it. Going along with the popular opinion of the time. Like being swept by the current of the ocean. The lack of understanding is the core from which all current arguments stem from.
This does not mean that it is based on a consensus though. It is not derived from people agreeing on what visual art is or is not. It is independent because it operates by means of values and concepts. It’s Epistemology and the way the cognitive mind works.
There is an error in your other point. One common one is associating AI or the machine, with a human artist. This is an example of context dropping because the image AIs are not a volitional, sentient, free-will entity. This is like comparing a forklift to a human. A few steps are missing in between. Values are not possible without volition. It is the user (the human) of the tool who possesses values and volition. They are the ones who reap the benefits from the use of the tool. Like a caveman does when he uses a rock to bash something or a stick to reach for a fruit up in a tree. The machine has no volition and thus it does not equate to commissioning an artist to execute your vision.
Also discussing the specific abilities of the current AI doesn’t really apply to the argument. It is not static, it will continue to improve rapidly. There are also several different image AIs and approaches that might fit an artist’s preference. Whether it is using one of the multitude available, or using tools like ControlNet, training your own model, etc.. This is why I continue to mention to think in principle. To find the fundamental premise that applies to all previous approaches to art and future ones using advanced technology. Whether the current ones are good enough for your desired outcome or whether it is done in some specific method (whether through full automation or a mixture) is irrelevant. What actually matters is whether you initiate the action in some way to communicate your desired outlook.
Very eloquently put, thank you Dave.
Thank you so much for this, you expressed everything the community is feeling perfectly
Would you argue that cameras are also not tools, but services, since they do the whole job for you? Rather than needing to paint a scene yourself, you tweak a few parameters (much like those you tweak with AI), press one button, and the image is captured. Tens of thousands of pixels written in an instant with perfect precision, all work you didn’t have to do using the photoreceptors in your own eyes. You can even snap photos without looking at the subject.
Aren’t some aspects of Photoshop not tools, but services? Think about functions like altering the levels, brightness, or global coloration. Those are things you can accomplish by hand in various ways, but instead you use a time-saving feature that applies that effect to the entire finished image in the blink of an eye, with some level of intelligence about how it does it.
You’re describing a tool. The camera doesn’t decide the composition of a landscape photo, it isn’t going to direct the subject of as portrait how to pose and express themselves in the image. It just takes the photo that you direct it to take. You’re still in control as the photographer.
And yes unfortunately Adobe is leaning into using AI to make parts of Photoshop more of a service than a tool, but personally I will always adjust levels and brightness etc myself because I have a personal style and preference for the way my photos look and don’t want my images to have a look or feeling that Adobe has decided is the right way for these images to look. Because that Adobe look is homogenized among any users who use that “intelligent editing” and then what is differentiating me from the next Joe Photographer?
As a collector of art for quite some time, I am very sympathetic to the economic implications AI will have on those up-and-coming talents who are discouraged by this technology. It truly saddens me. There are legions whose talents are currently leveraged in many ways across various sectors in order to put food on the table. And, their original artwork (e.g. in the case of comic book art or poster art) is saleable personally after they have been paid by companies to produce the product. I personally, have little to no interest in buying artwork that is, at least in part, AI generated. It cheapens the process and, IMHO, decreases the artists salability to collector’s like myself to nearly zero. That’s just me though. All of that being said, there are some simple facts that are clearly recognized by all: 1) The AI “engine” is going nowhere, 2) The AI “engine” will only get better with time, 3) Any company reliant on art (of any kind) in order to recognize a profit will certainly try and leverage AI to recognize an even greater profit, 4) the average human’s (i.e. consumer) concern about whether AI was used in the production of their commodity/product is effectively zero, and 5) If AI was producing absolute shit, nobody would care. Regarding the process of creation of product (with human-inspired art also being “produced”, thus a product: Each process, whether feeding the AI “engine” piles of data (and metadata) or a human being leveraging all of their lifelong “inputs”, relies on some level of specifying the end product and asking the producer to spin it up. So, in the case of AI, the only real way to limit its use (it can’t be stopped) is to find a way to LEGALLY require that anyone producing an AI product ONLY uses EXPLICITLY APPROVED CONTENT to be used in the process. This forces companies that want to use AI to pull only from data that is either covered by PUBLIC DOMAIN or, as stated previously, EXPLICITLY allowed (opt-in) to be used by the rightful owner of the content rather than pirating for their own profit. One way of identifying these explicitly allowed pieces to be used would be to digitally embed some code in each digital creation that flags its allowance for use in AI. If the flag isn’t set, then it can’t be used. Another way would be to force the AI companies to ONLY pull data from their own databases and REGULATE it so that they could be AUDITED and PENALIZED by the government (I hate to involve THEM, but..). This would disallow AI companies to train their “engines” on the entire internet for “fuel.” This is not an easy road, but I feel it is worth pursuing. In the latter “solution”, AI companies may then be forced to hire artists to produce specified “stock” art that can then feed the AI “engine” (a costly exercise). But, why would an artist allow their body of work to feed the problem that may serve to put them out of business eventually? In the meantime, I will continue to support human art as best I can by being a patron.
چه کولر گازی برای مغازه و فروشگاه مناسب است ؟
در این مقاله از بامین تهویه، به بررسی انواع کولر گازی پرتابل، اسپلیت و پنجره ای برای مغازه و فروشگاه می پردازیم و نکات مهم برای خرید کولر گازی را بررسی می کنیم.
Excellent article. You sir are a very intelligent man